The Inferno

“When it became clear that the death warrant for hundreds of thousands
of Irish babies was about to be signed, it broke my heart.
When I saw the grotesque pictures of people dancing in the streets in
celebration it was like a scene out of Dante’s Inferno.”

David Robertson


(Dante)

Dante degli Alighieri was a 14th century Florentine who is most remembered for the epic
poems he composed into a collection known as The Divine ComedyInferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso
in other words, Hell, Purgatory and finally Paradise.

The collection of 3 poems are as epic as they are brilliant.
An allegory for what Dante believed were his own dark days and yet sadly for us,
during these trying days of our own, his words are most timely as they remain as a
reflective mirror—reflecting the emptiness of our own darkness.

As noted by a description on Wikipedia,
“it [hell] is the “realm…
of those who have rejected spiritual values by yielding to bestial appetites
or violence, or by perverting their human intellect to fraud or malice
against their fellowmen”.

Our friend the Wee Flea, the Scottish Pastor David Robertson, continues in his most
recent post which piggybacks off of the post he wrote just following the passing of the
referendum in Ireland rescinding the ban on abortion, as a most troubling sign of the times.

David likens much of what we are witnessing coming out of Ireland, in particular
what is coming out of the capital of Dublin, with its now jubilant party-like atmosphere
following the passage of the vote,
as something that could be straight out of the pages of Dante’s Inferno.

David notes that the vote, which is in itself bad enough in its own right, almost pales in
comparison to the near-hysterical celebratory mania that has followed the referendum’s passage…
a frenzied jumbled hoopla that is more than disturbing, it is downright barbaric.

Think about it…
a vote passed with an overwhelmingly large percentage in favor of the right to
terminate pregnancies up to 12 weeks…meaning that a mother can decide to
legally kill her unborn child, and the people are celebrating as if some massive
and oppressive enemy has just been finally and thankfully defeated.

Some sort of David and Goliath moment but so utterly far from such.

Prior to this vote, women in Ireland who wished to terminate their pregnancy
had to travel to Britain.

Yet today, women from around the globe are now proclaiming this latest referendum as
a giant victory in the way of women’s rights.
It’s that whole notion of ‘it’s my body, it’s my choice’ nonsense.

But what of it no longer being just your body involved?
Technically it is no longer the choice of a single individual because there are
actually, two bodies now involved.

And if the truth be told, it is not merely a singular choice or even a choice of two…
but rather it is a choice that truthfully involves three…

Yet oddly we never seem to hear about nor count the male who was involved
and assisted in the occurrence of this now rather ominous choice that is proclaimed as
being a singular choice.

David startingly notes that the whereas the politicians and the media have each
joined in the festivities proclaiming this referendum as a victory for the people…
the collective body of Church families has remained eerily silent.

The Catholic Chruch, silent.
The Anglican Chruch, silent.
The Chruch of Scotland, silent
The Free Chruch, silent.
The Baptist Chruch, silent.

A few clergy members here and there have voiced their sorrow but as far as a collective
Christian body response, the voices remain silent…

My favorite quote by Dante:
“The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis,
maintain their neutrality.”

Perhaps the Chruch needs a reminder of the volumes her indifference speaks…

The Irish Referendum – the Repercussions

Matt. 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked,
“Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them.
3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in
the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble,
it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be
drowned in the depths of the sea.

128 comments on “The Inferno

  1. atimetoshare.me says:

    I sometimes feel like we are currently living in hell as the devil has been free to do his dirty work even more as time goes by. The celebratory effect is proof of that. People parade in the streets and hold up signs declaring victory when we accept murder of the unborn – gay rights, and same sex marriage – promiscuity as the norm and on and on. Yet I know that Satan has been defeated and will lose in the end. In the meantime, we are left to pray for those who have been led astray and are silent. There is still hope for all of us through Christ, Jesus. Let’s pray that he comes soon!

  2. Arkenaten says:

    Do you honestly believe that making/keeping abortion illegal is the solution to the problem or will ever prevent women from terminating pregnancies?

    • Wally Fry says:

      Do you believe that making bank robbery illegal stops bank robbers? And if not should we just go with it and make robberies legal?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Robbing banks is already illegal, Wally. Were you unaware of this?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Ah..no answer to the question then I see.

        Abortion was illegal too. Don’t be slow. Sheesh

      • Arkenaten says:

        Ask a sensible question and I shall provide a sensible answer.
        In fact, why don’t you provide a better solution?
        And in the meantime …
        Tell, me, Wally do you think abortion should be allowed if the pregnancy endangers the woman’s life?

      • Wally Fry says:

        LOL….yeah. It’s really you. No. YOU were asked a question. Answer it or prove that you are nothing but a blowhard and a hater. Typical blather from your void and empty worldview. Declare any question you don’t want to answer as being not sensible and then claim you don’t have to answer questions that aren’t sensible.

        That’s not SENSIBLE lol

      • Arkenaten says:

        Are you approaching this from a legal or moral perspective, Wally?

      • Wally Fry says:

        It’s like Cool Hand Luke here. What we have here is a failure to communicate. I’ll type slow. I asked YOU a question. How you answer it is up to you. You have claimed MANY times to be way smarter than any Christian on whose blog you comment, yet when asked a question you turn in to a mental stone head(pun intended.)

        Answer the question, Ark.

      • Arkenaten says:

        No. Making bank robberies illegal will not not stop bank robberies.

      • Wally Fry says:

        So why not just make them legal? After all, folks are gonna do it anyway right? Seriously though, make them legal and at least the poor robbers would be safe. Tell me WHY we should not make bank robbery legal, Ark. Why?

      • Arkenaten says:

        I think the main reason might be that the money or other such valuables is finite and before long there would be no banks left to rob – for obvious reasons which I’m sure i don’t have t explain even to you, Wally.
        By keeping it illegal it at least gives all those erstwhile Bonny and Clyde’s that most cherished of feelings … Hope!

        So, do you believe abortion should be allowed if the pregnancy is threatening the woman’s life?

      • Wally Fry says:

        So bank robbery should be illegal so that we don’t run out of banks to rob, or money and valuables to steal. Sure, that makes sense. Well, not really, they would just change hands. Would it then be wrong to rob the new owners, and if so why?

      • Arkenaten says:

        No … my turn, Cool Hand Luke.
        Don’t cheat.
        Do you believe abortion should be allowed if the life of the the pregnant woman was threatened?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Ark, you provided a throw away answer to the question you were asked. So, no it’s not your turn. I don’t play interrogate the Christian any more. If you don’t to play, fine.

        Tell my WHY bank robbery should be illegal. And, hint, it’s not because all of the money will be gone. Sheesh

      • Arkenaten says:

        Well there is also the likelihood that business would very quickly lose confidence in the banking system, finance would go for a ball of chalk, investors would hold on to their money and pretty soon we might be back to the barter system.

        Of course this then raises the specter of cattle rustling – presuming of course that cows were now the medium of exchange, but I suppose we might have chicken rustlers?
        This is a very good reason to keep bank robberies illegal.
        So, Wally, do you think abortion should be allowed if a pregnant woman’s life is at serious risk?

      • Wally Fry says:

        So, bank robbery isn’t wrong? It’s just rather inconvenient LOL. If that’s the best reason you have, then anything else is pointless. Good grief. That’s a bogus answer, and you know it. I won’t play your stupid game.

        Have one

      • Arkenaten says:

        No, bank robbery is wrong, for all the reasons I have just listed.

        I thought you were after a practical reason. Or are you looking for a moral reason?

        Now, are you going to dance around until your feet hurt or are you going to answer if you think abortion should be permissible if the woman’s life is at risk?
        I get the impression you are in fact scared to answer this one, Wally?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Me scared? Yeah that’s it. I’m not the one cowering behind a veil of feigned misunderstanding to avoid answering a question.

        We all know you don’t care about the answer to your question but just want an opening for some trap your hate filled mind has cooked up.

        Coward

        I won’t clog Julie’s blog anymore with you

      • Arkenaten says:

        As I thought. And once again, when the difficult questions arise you run for the hills.
        You are, I am sad to say, an immoral hypocrite.

      • judyt54 says:

        Wally, you have danced around a simple question for the entire time. Pregancy has no connection to bank robbery and you know it. Very few robbers are forced to go to back street banks to rob them, and then die in the attempt.

        A woman denied an abortion because the pregnancy has gone wrong (babies do die in the womb, and often the mother dies with it, horribly) , or it has been discovered that the child is not developing, or it’s a tubal pregnancy…but without this kind of law in place, those women themselves would die, as well. While you and your sanctimonious brethren pray over them.

        Really nice, Wally.

      • Wally Fry says:

        So if i understand the rules correctly only Christians have to answer questions Judy? There was a point and your friend Ark knows it. He comes over and rails about the moral failures of Christian supported by an empty and void world view that can’t even explain why robbery is morally wrong. He knows and you also know that his question was not asked to open an honest dialogue but to clear the brush for another rabbit trail. He came over, and because the host would not chase his rabbit, made up an answer and assigned it to get. He lied Judy. Period. If you find that bothersome then perhaps you need better friends.

        There is no room for common ground and open dialogue when the mouthpiece for your team uses those tactics. Ark doesn’t give a flying crap about either abortion or women. They are just a tool he can use to forget his personal ends, which is to hate on Christians. Meanwhile you and the rest of the items pack are maligning a person who doesn’t deserve it.

        My question was valid. It’s not my circus and not my monkey if Ark can’t answer it.

      • Arkenaten says:

        @Wally.

        Your question regarding bank robberies was answered, from the practical and the moral perspective. You are just pissed because from the moral perspective we did not involve your god as the source of that morality, and this you simply cannot deal with.

        And if this is the only angle you are able to approach such matters then what sort of morality are we dealing with when a pregnant woman’s life is forfeit because you are too much of a damn coward to even acknowledge the need to perform an abortion to save her life?

        That, my friend is not only immoral but also disgusting and could, under certain circumstances, be considered tantamount to culpable homicide.

        You are a disgrace!

      • Wally Fry says:

        I did not answer your question. I took NO stance. I WON”T answer your question, either. LOL,,,doesn’t that suck for you?

        However, you MAKE up my answer, just like to did with Julie, and will likely do with Tricia.

        You are a liar.

        Furthermore, you don’t give a rat’s butt about this issue. All you care about is railing against God by whatever means you can.

        Have a nice day!

      • Arkenaten says:

        If you read Julie’s post she quotes Dante and his view of neutrality.
        There is a special place in your Hell for the likes of you, Wally!
        And don’t you dare tell me whether I give a rat’s arse you disgusting piece of filth of a little man!
        I once nearly lost a dear friend because of an ectopic pregnancy and if she had not had emergency surgery she would have died. She had to have a hysterectomy afterwards and that ended her chances of ever conceiving again.
        My wife had a similar, though thank the stars, not life-threatening experience a few years later.
        I sincerely hope to the gods you are never in the position where one of your grand-kids need an abortion or she will die.
        Then we would see the true man that you are.
        I never lie.

        Have a day.

      • Wally Fry says:

        LOL. I have a position you blathering fool. I’m just not sharing it with you and the hate crew. My actual thoughts on this issue might shock you, but you and your friends won’t ever hear them because you storm on here in full assault mode with a magazine full of false assumption. Then, when Christians don’t play along, you make stuff up.

        That makes you a liar.

        So, got more names you want to hurl? Other than lies, that is about all you bring to the table.

      • Arkenaten says:

        You demand an answer to your ridiculous bank robbery charge and then refuse to answer whether you would agree to an abortion if the woman’s life was at risk?
        That makes you disingenuous at the very least.
        I don’t need to hurl any” names.” Everything I level at you is a character description.

        The only person that hates around here, is you, I’m afraid to say.
        And you hate the fact you are caught out every single time you try to be clever.

        Try a little honesty. You might find it a refreshing change.

    • Hi Ark—I think back in the day when there was nary a thought of creating such a law as we as a society weren’t not yet set to “go there”…we called it coat hangers and back ally ways. Barbaric and certainly catastrophic to both unborn and mother.
      It was the call of desperation.

      I am adopted Ark.

      Born in the late 1950’s to an unwed young woman.
      She never told her family about the pregancy due to being terribly ashamed. So she moved away to the big city and took a job.
      She was a nurse but sought no prenatal care trying best as she could to hide “this problem”—she did tell the father who they tell me each loved oneanother but for whatever reason…she wouldn’t marry him when he asked.
      On the day of delivery, she had the baby (me) and then turned and walked out of the hospital that very same day…never to look back.
      I am glad that she decided to carry me to term despite her circumstance.
      My adoptive family was glad…as are now my own family…husband, son, granddaughter…
      Life is funny how things play out.
      I do not think a ban or law will stop abortions…there are always ways, be they hook or crook, to get things done.
      But if we simply decide to leagalize everything that we once banned, but are rather simply finding easier and easier to accept and live with, as long as, say, it’s not in our own backyard, we can readily turn a blind eye and go on.. That does not make it any more right…only more conveninet.

      I do believe taht abortion is the taking of a life Ark. And yes I know there are all sorts of
      grey circumstances that create nightmares—rape, incest, severe deformities and illness…
      huge prices to be paid by the women who carry such perganancies to term.
      But in my faith Ark, I know of no mistake God makes and that He can and does take our own sinful nature and acts and can in turn use them to His gracious purpose.
      And so it comes down to whose purpose—my own or God’s. I pray I can choose God’s.

      • Arkenaten says:

        I fully understand that you would choose what you believe to be your god’s purpose, but there are many who do not follow your god, and let’s be honest, Julie, there are several biblical passages regarding this issue and similar that are quite horrific.

        As to the grey areas:
        If are going to stand in judgment regarding pregnancy through rape and/ or incest and such like, then why should other terminations be considered sacrosanct?

        One thing that has always bothered … and confused me … has been the Church’s traditional stance on contraception and sex education in general.

        These are the areas that need to be seriously addressed and would go a long way in allowing women to have full autonomy over their decision to fall pregnant.

        As a person for faith and a woman I am surprised that you would not push such things for all they are worth.

      • I was also a high school educator Ark.

        My avenue was and alwys is abstinence.
        If you don’t want to get pregant, don’t have sex.
        Plain and simple.
        But our society /culture doesn’t find any fun, satisfaction or gratification in that simple notion.
        So we create birth control.
        Be it a condom, a pill, an IUD or in the more extreme case, abortion. And yes this is all centuries old as condoms were once sheep skin.
        I have had many argue with me that in the case of rape and incest, where a pregnancy results, should that woman not be permitted to terminate such a pregancy?
        To which I again say no.
        I am not Catholic.
        But the best teaching, believe it or not, that I’ve ever read on the subject of sex and marriage actually came from the writings of Pope John Paul II.
        He spoke of the sacredness of the covenant of marraige—of which is the mirror of Christ and His Bride the Chruch—a holy union.
        In the idea of sex within a marriage…you have to have two consentual adults who fully understand that from sex comes the possibility of a pregnancy.
        It’s just that simple.
        Sex may or may not produce a pregancy—and that is if both male and female are “fertile”
        So it becomes a matter of putting one’s partner above one’s own wants and desires.
        A pretty tall order for those caught in the throws of passion…hence why sex is a union not to be entered into lightly.
        There is responsibilty with sex.
        A huge responsibility.
        But agian, we live in a culture and society that does not want to consider “responsibility”
        Sometimes a man or woman must put their own pleasures and satisfactions aside due to what could actually come from such a union.
        That’s a tall order for a people use to getting and doing what they want when and how they want.

      • Arkenaten says:

        I have had many argue with me that in the case of rape and incest, where a pregnancy results, should that woman not be permitted to terminate such a pregancy? To which I again say no.

        The obvious question (for me) arises – at what stage of a pregnancy do you consider the woman is carrying a ”baby”.
        Also, if the woman’s life is threatened do you then consider termination of the pregnancy justifiable?
        Although you side with abstinence, are you actually against contraception? What about contraception within marriage?
        If you are not against contraception per se, then do you think it would be a good thing to promote contraception and perhaps some form of limited or non-invasive medical procedure (for men and women) that effectively removed all risk of pregnancy until such time as a couple/individual wants to have a baby?

      • The fertilization of egg and sperm…from whence then follows life.
        I don’t think that it’s ok at x number of days or weeks vesus another count of x number of weeks, days or even months to terminate a pergancy.
        And I certainly don’t agree with that “morning after” pill.
        If you don’t want to run the risk of pregnancy then don’t have sex.
        If in the case of rape, incest when it wasn’t asked for but rather foreced and imposed upon…this is where God’s grace must prevail.
        And Ark you raise good questions, aside from robberies, what of contraception in marraige??
        Well, since in marraige with the possibility of children always being the given, then each couple has to approach such intimate timing with consideration and thought.
        If the timing isn’t right, then it isn’t right.

        At almost 60 years old, I’ve learned a lot in my life Ark…what I may have thought, at say at 30, to be right or good is not what I think so much now.
        I’ve learned and grown trememdously in my faith…a faith that was not always what it is now…God has been gracious to me.

        So the possibility of pregnancy is the reason as to why marriage is not to be entered into lightly and it is why this open sexual culture we’ve created is so terribly wrong in so many ways.

      • Arkenaten says:

        The fertilization of egg and sperm…from whence then follows life.

        We can argue the minutiae ’til the cows come home but this is not a baby.

        If in the case of rape, incest when it wasn’t asked for but rather foreced and imposed upon…this is where God’s grace must prevail.

        But, again, Julie, whose god? And I’m pretty sure you don’t need me to quote chapter and verse for the
        supposed abortion ritual in the Old Testament.

        And Ark you raise good questions, aside from robberies, what of contraception in marraige??
        Well, since in marraige with the possibility of children always being the given, then each couple has to approach such intimate timing with consideration and thought.

        Sorry, Julie, I get the feeling you are obfuscating a bit here. Contraception within marriage, yes or no?

        And you avoided the question regarding developing a method of contraception that effectively eliminated pregnancy until the individual or the couple decide the time was right to have children.
        I’d appreciate a straightforward answer.

      • Yep…the minute the two become one so to speak–when ferterlization occurs, we have life…a baby to be. A baby to be at 2 days or 39 weeks…it’s still the life of a child growing within. And yes I did offer you a forthright answer—it’s called abstinence. Of which I stated in our first little block of conversation.
        And speaking of babies…mine is set to come back for a visit Thrusday, so I’m off to clean and wash in grand anticipation.

      • Arkenaten says:

        So no to contraception then.
        Am I correct that this is your view?

        And what if the pregnancy is threatening the life of the woman, do you believe it is morally permissible to terminate the pregnancy?

      • We will save our endless debate for another day Ark when I don’t have so much to clean…becasue that’s all it is Ark…you with your views and thoughts and me with mine.
        I won’t be changing your mind or heart anytime soon so the babbling can wait.
        You know my thoughts on the matter…that is aside from the bank robberies and now cows 🙂
        My son has an expression “don’t poke the bear” meaning the response may not be pleasant…I think you’re merely goading Wally and that is not kind.
        Off to scrub…

      • Arkenaten says:

        Wally had a go at me first as you can plainly see, Julie.

        There is no ”debate” Julie, I am merely asking you straightforward questions and some you are steadfastly avoiding answering.
        So please, if a pregnant woman’s life is threatened do you agree that an abortion is morally acceptable to save her life?
        Yes or no>?

      • It’s hard to keep up with you two but I do read a lot of poking between your lines. I answered your initial question Ark about to legalize or not-you then begin spiraling from that to the hypotheticals and the what ifs-you know my thoughts and so again, I must scoot to wash and clean— thank you for allowing me to share what I consider to be God’s grace.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Ah .. and Wally most certainly doesn’t poke, I suppose? *Shakes head*
        It is permissible to criticize a fellow Christian you know, even a silly Young Earth Creationist such as Wally.,

        And I am still waiting for an answer regarding the abortion issue if a woman’s life is at risk.
        Are you unable to answer this or would you throw her to the wolves and announce ”God’s grace will prevail” in this instance as well, Julie?
        I sincerely hope this is not the case as this would be tantamount to manslaughter.
        And as you quote Dante in your post:
        “The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis,
        maintain their neutrality.”

      • You poke well— 😎

      • Arkenaten says:

        Still waiting for an answer regarding the abortion issue if a woman’s life is at risk.

        Yes or no?

        Surely you do not want me of all people to draw my own conclusions do you?

      • What are you thoughts Ark— it’s impolite of me to ramble on without asking your thoughts on the matter

      • Arkenaten says:

        I will hazard a guess that you already know my view on this , which is why I am asking for your view.
        Would you throw her to the wolves and rely on your god’s grace or would you acknowledge that an abortion would save her life and this was the right thing to do?

      • So in your asking me, you are veiling your own throw her to wolves belief?? And what is that right thing Ark?

      • Arkenaten says:

        You do not consider saving the woman to be the right thing, Julie?
        Are you serious?

      • I didn’t say that— you are inferring and you keep sidestepping to the hypothetical

      • Arkenaten says:

        Your apparent refusal to answer a straightforward question suggests that you would let the woman die. Is this the case?

      • Why did you insist and assume that is the right thing todo?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Are you suggesting it ISN’T?

        What if it were your own daughter?
        So yes or no?

      • I don’t have a daughter but a son — and I thought this was about legalizing abortion— of which I am against – end of the back and forth… that is unless you want to come clean these bathrooms that aren’t cleaning themselves

      • Arkenaten says:

        Right, so I can therefore presume that you would indeed forbid an abortion and thus let the woman die.
        Well, at least you are being honest.
        Vile … but honest.

        The depravity of some who are so indoctrinated they are prepared to allow manslaughter based solely on the supposed view of their faith is quite astounding.

      • Your presumptions my friend

      • Arkenaten says:

        Well, it is a simply matter to deny my ”presumption”, is it not?
        Or are you of the view that your god will in fact make the decision that you will not?
        And how would you feel if both mother and child died.
        Of course, that never happened in the past now did it, Julie?
        How does it sit with your moral conscience knowing that you would allow the woman and possibly the child to die?

      • Wally Fry says:

        “Right, so I can therefore presume that you would indeed forbid an abortion and thus let the woman die”

        Ark, your statement is not a presumption. It is a lie, and you are liar. Julie said no such thing, and for you to couch your questions and presumptions as if another said something they did not is a lie. That makes you liar.

        This is not a “poke,” This is a full on declaration of truth.

        You are liar, a coward, and a bully.

        To accuse Julie of being vile is what is vile. Go back to your cackling band of haters and brag how you made the Christians look stupid.

        Oh, and in case you thought my accusation was too veiled, I shall clarify.

        You are a liar, a coward, and a bully

      • Arkenaten says:

        No, I never tell lies, as you have been told before.
        But you are most certainly as disingenuous as they come as you demonstrate time and time again.

        So Wally, would you allow an abortion if the woman’s life was in peril or would you allow your god to decide and leave well alone?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Sure you lied. You put words in another’s mouth they never said. That makes you a liar.

        The fact that you repeat it over and over makes you a bully.

        The fact that you consistently refuse to answer any questions presented to you make you a coward.

        Liar, coward, bully. In no special order.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Nope, never lie.
        I have answered every question you have asked me on this thread.
        You have yet to answer a single one.,
        So I’ll give you another opportunity.,
        Would you consider it the moral/right/ethical thing to do to allow an abortion if it would save the life of the pregnant woman?
        Yes or no?
        Straightforward and simple answer.

      • Wally Fry says:

        Just make something up. That’s what you do anyway.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Are you also afraid to answer the question honestly, Wally?
        If we were talking about the life of your wife would you still be hedging in this manner?

        If she was lying unconscious on the operating table and the gynecologist turned to you and asked you to make a decision would you say: ”Go ahead, please save my wife,” or would you tell the doctor that it was in your god’s hands.
        Tell me, Wally, what would you do?

      • Wally Fry says:

        I’m not afraid.

        That’s another lie.

        Liar

      • Arkenaten says:

        Not a lie. Honest mistake, perhaps, based on past conversations.So, answer the question then.

      • Wally Fry says:

        Is bank robbery morally wrong?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Seriously, what do you think my answer is likely to be, Wally?

        However, the question; Would you, Wally let your pregnant wife die rather than permit the gynecologist to perform an abortion is one I would not risk five dollars on.

      • Wally Fry says:

        I don’t know your answer. Nor will I presume it.

        Is bank robbery morally wrong?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Is any theft morally right?

        I take it you would allow your god to decide on the life of your unconscious wife and not make a decision?
        Would this not be considered a form of manslaughter on your part?
        You would at the very least be culpable in some way for her death should she die.

        Is this more moral than robbing a bank do you think?

      • Wally Fry says:

        No theft is not morally right

        I asked you though

        And you are lying again

      • Arkenaten says:

        So as robbing banks is considered theft it is not morally right.

        Would you refuse to allow the gynecologist to perform an abortion and risk letting your pregnant wife die on the operating table?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Good.

        Why is it morally wrong?

      • Arkenaten says:

        I explained all this before.
        So,do I take it you would allow your god to decide on the life of your pregnant wife?

      • Arkenaten says:

        I never lie.
        So you would allow your wife to die, yes or no?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Lol you just did!

      • Arkenaten says:

        Are you drunk?
        I do not tell lies. Why should I?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Why is robbery morally wrong?

      • Arkenaten says:

        I already answered this up-thread.
        Would you allow your god to decide the fate of your pregnant wife who would likely die if an abortion was not performed?

      • Wally Fry says:

        No you didn’t. You have some lame reasons why it’s a bad idea

      • Arkenaten says:

        Yes I did.
        But you still haven’t answered if you would allow your wife to die for the wont of an abortion.
        Do I take it you would take this risk and maybe lose both mother AND child?

      • Wally Fry says:

        Are they conscious or unconscious?

      • Arkenaten says:

        It’s ironic, that today I read a post where the author was referring to a study that suggested there was a strong correlation between certain aspects of fundamentalist religious belief and mental illness.
        I try not to be overly hasty but whenever I read the things you write I can’t help believing there is definite merit in this.

      • Wally Fry says:

        Oooooooo Ark has played the crazy card

        I renounce my faith

        Later Ark.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Later Wally. Don’t forget to Hug a Dinosaur

      • whoa, hold up, when was she unconcious?

      • Arkenaten says:

        Are you being asinine now Julie?

      • And add hard headed like the stone his image he hides behind — which is only sand that will eventually crumble — and it is pretty rude calling a gracious hostess vile so we’ll add in rude as well..

      • Wally Fry says:

        This is not mere rudeness, my friend. It is evil run amok.

      • Still working on my graciousness but yeah— can’t be gracious with darkness

  3. ColorStorm says:

    Love your passion jewels.

    As the good book sez: the righteous tend to life.

    Another sad day in the chapter of life as history brings another day of decadence.

    • thank you CS…it is another sad day indeed—but I will continue to ring the bell, sounding the clarion call to all Believers…

      • ColorStorm says:

        For whom the bell tolls……………

        ………..we hear, and ring it again,, again, and again.

        Kind of like what we are supposed to do. Evangelism comes in many flavors, but all points to Truth.

      • And I will continue in this very tiny corner of mine to keep offering that Truth…to whomever may have ears to hear…

  4. Arkenaten says:

    And add hard headed like the stone his image he hides behind — which is only sand that will eventually crumble — and it is pretty rude calling a gracious hostess vile so we’ll add in rude as well..

    I think that forbidding an abortion that would save a woman’s life is vile.One could hardly call it a humanitarian gesture now could one?

    How is me being supposedly rude worse than your stance on this issue?
    Please explain.

  5. judyt54 says:

    And in the end, refusing to abort a two month old fetus who is going to die anyway, and letting the mother die is killing both of them. I guess you could say it’s a win win situation, yep.

  6. KIA says:

    Hi cookie. Question: forgive me if you’ve answered already, but when do you believe life begins in the womb?

    • Hi KIA, hope you’ve been well.
      I did say earlier in all that chatter that whereas I am no biologist, gynocologist or embryologist but I believe that life begins right after the fertilization…I think biology calls it a zygote.

      • KIA says:

        So, every zygote is a person for you? Or am I overstating?

      • You may be overstating…for like I say, I’m no biologist. And conception is mystery. But in my belief… when there is conception, there is a life.
        But agian, that is me my firend…

      • KIA says:

        Would you protect everyone of those zygotes as if their destruction was murder?

      • good Lord Mike, what kind of question is that. If I knew one of those zygotes was Jack the Ripper, whould I kill the zygote?? That is quite the far fetched woulda, shoulda, coulda kind of question.
        I have neither the abilty nor power to be that decision maker…

      • KIA says:

        Not… Would you kill if you could. But would you consider each ‘life’ or zygote equally worthy of protection?

      • fire ants are what I perfer to do away with.

      • KIA says:

        Again… Not talking about killing. I’m asking whether you consider all fertilized zygotes equally worthy of protection from destruction?

      • KIA says:

        Seems like you may have decided not to answer. Have a great day

  7. Wally Fry says:

    Sigh. Typo city in my comment to Judy.

  8. judyt54 says:

    and hard on the heels of that one, what happens to all those ‘wasted’ sperm that never make it to the unfertilized egg? Aren’t they, too, little deaths?

  9. Wally Fry says:

    Watch me prophecy. Preacher Mike will next think he has trapped you into calling God a murderer because of miscarriages

  10. ColorStorm says:

    106 comments and a spin off to create a maelstrom of finger pointing at the level headed and calm Julie. Geezo, some people’s kids.

    Consider that a badge of honour J, and good for you for not taking the bait of ‘hypotheticals;’ we repeat: the righteous tend to life, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and to turn from evil is understanding.

    I am so glad I avoided the intentional and predictable train wreck by the visitors……….you did well pilgrim to stay on point and full of grace.

    • Thanks CS—yep, a gracious spirit sorely tested!!!

      • ColorStorm says:

        Unnecessarily tested I may add.

        If these people had the same regard for infants that they supposedly have for walruses, skunks, fox, and deer, and yes, rats……………

      • sadly so—plus there seems to be a good many comments in the moderation bucket that I’ve yet to check due to the comsumption of time yesterday over the one main commenter…
        boy, did I hit a nerve yesterday or what.
        And just like the revelers in Ireland who seem to be so over the top on the referendum…so tends to be my commenters…over the top

  11. Tricia says:

    Well nothing like a post on abortion to rile up the comments section! As usual you handled the storm well.

    I don’t often participate in these debates because of the refusal of the other side to acknowledge good faith to those on the pro life side. If you truly believe life begins at conception than of course you’re going to want to see abortion rates go down, not up.. It’s that simple really. People can and do disagree when life begins, of course, but too many pro choicers continually harp on the “patriarchy wants to control women” nonsense which prevents any rational discussion. It’s now just a political wedge issue.

    The world has been brainwashed quite well by this and is why you see team pro abortion dancing in the streets over the Irish referendum.

    • Arkenaten says:

      Hi Tricia
      I think it would be better all round if abortion was not an issue at all.
      Do you at least recognise the option of contraception?
      And would you consider abortion the morally right option if it meant saving the life of the pregnant woman?

      • Tricia says:

        I do recognize and have no problem with contraception. Steering discussions about abortion towards those that involve a fraction of a percentage of cases where a pregnancy is terminated is a purposeful tactic meant to play on emotions.

      • Arkenaten says:

        Whether they are a fraction of the amount of abortions is immaterial. They are a very real fact of life and one that has to be approached in as kind and understanding manner as possible.
        You will have noted, I’m sure, that both Julie and Wally steadfastly avoided answering this question, even when I proposed that the woman in question was Wally’s wife or Julie’s hypothetical daughter.

        And it is because this is such an emotional issue that such circumstances have to be taken into consideration, especially if one is basing their view on religious grounds where all morality is believed to stem from one’s god.
        So I ask again, would you, personally be in agreement to allow an abortion if the pregnant woman’s life was threatened?
        And an ectopic pregnancy for example can become life threatening.

    • Yep…so it appears my friend…
      My whole thought was that it was a sad day in Ireland…which equates to being a sad day in Western Civilization.

      Yes sadness over the vote, but perhaps more sadness for the vehement, and in some instances, insane displays of sadistic glee.

      Yet what I find sad, others are obvioulsly finding joyful. Such is the dichotomy of our
      human selves.

      And as you know, I certainly have opinons as to those medical emergencies that leave little to no choice…yet that was not the post.
      And it was not the place or time to delve into such with those happily wishing to skirt off to rabbit holes.

      The post was not to the hypothetical, the what if’s, the goading or even, now as it seems, the name calling.

      It was a reflection of David Roberston’s post, a refelction of a “family member of this blog”, a Catholic in Ireland, who was sorrowful and it was a reflection of just my own sad dismay over the sheer lunacy as to how far we have fallen when it comes to common decency, civility and decorum offered one to another.

      And I suppose there will always be those who want to take everything farther away from the stated…far away to the land of ‘what if’ and ‘how come’…

      I don’t have the time to spend another day blabbering on and on about nothing.
      My thought is if you like to read what a person posts, that’s great.
      If you don’t, that’s great as well.
      Just don’t read it or visit or hang around looking for trouble. Because what else would be your purpose…understanding? Respect? Commonality?

      I’ve never been one to go looking for things that I gravely oppose as it would not serve me or that place any good…there would be no growth or common ground but rather anger and disdain…as was witnessed here yesterday and today sadly.

      So I suppose we’ll move on Tricia…to some new area that will undoubtedly draw someone’s ire or wrath…

      But yay for free speech and personal opinion—some places aren’t so fortunate…
      I always have loved the quote by Evelyn Beatrice Hall when she wrote a book about Voltaire; “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”

      I fear we are forgetting we are here to help defend one another, not tear one another apart.

      • Tricia says:

        So well said Julie, gosh that whole comment right there would make a great post. 🙂

        I’ve never understood either the desire of some to visit sites they disagree vehemently with. They are not there to discuss or grow or possibly learn something, but to poke and cause trouble. It fulfills a need in many unfortunately.

        The actual vote didn’t bother me so much, as that is part of what free and democratic societies do; they debate important issues and vote upon them. As you stated so well in your post, it was the absolute glee and party atmosphere of the victors that was so disturbing.

        Love that quote too!

      • A democratic process indeed and as our friend Citizen Tom reminds us – if you’re not happy get out—-campaign and vote— yet it is the silence from the church bodies that was also troubling

  12. Arkenaten says:

    I fear we are forgetting we are here to help defend one another, not tear one another apart.

    Unfortunately , Julie this is exactly what religion does – tear us apart – countries, communities, and even families.

    Yes, the celebrations in Ireland might seem over the top, but one should be scrupulously honest and at least view this in its historical context.
    The Christian church has been instrumental in the abject repression of women and their human rights since its inception, and the Catholic church and its heinous stance on birth control has been directly or indirectly responsible for millions of deaths.
    The abortion issue falls under this umbrella.
    This post would have likely ended after four or five comments had you and Wally simply answered the questions I asked without hopping from one foot to another.

    You are upset the various churches did not immediately jump in with both feet, nor issue official statements (apparently?)

    This, much like the 30,000 plus number of christian denominations that cannot agree on a single doctrine should be telling you something loud and clear.

    That millions of Catholic women actively use birth control in defiance of church doctrine should tell you that people will not be told what to do with their bodies by others who have no right to dictate such terms. No right whatsoever.

  13. Arkenaten says:

    I’ve never understood either the desire of some to visit sites they disagree vehemently with. They are not there to discuss or grow or possibly learn something, but to poke and cause trouble. It fulfills a need in many unfortunately.

    Because religion has always intruded and infringed on human rights. Always!

    It is based of unsubstantiated presuppositional falsehood that decrees human beings are ”sinners” then claims it, and it alone has the cure, failure to comply resulting in eternal damnation and torture.
    And this in its various forms is indoctrinated into children.

    And this is one reason why posts that celebrate this worldview from whichever perspective or whatever religion will always be challenged.

    So now you know Tricia..

  14. Wally Fry says:

    Ark doesn’t give two happy hoots about this issue. He just wants an atheist pulpit. I think we finally see that Julie. Quite clearly

    • yes, so it seems.
      So me trying to say that we live in a fallen world and due to man’s sinful nature and brokeness of which is what leads us to our problems with one another probably would flow in one ear and right out the other, or in this case, in one eye and out the other…
      And then there’d be some new rabbit hole to scoot down regarding this reply to you…makes one tried really —I have my bully pulpit, others have their own.
      As I think that’s what blogging is about. I read what I like and I write about what I like…as do others.
      I don’t run marathons so I don’t go read much about those bloggers who write about such. Just makes sense to me. So if you don’t like Christianity…go find those place of like minds and enjoy…

    • Arkenaten says:

      @Wally & Julie.

      I have explained on numerous occasions why I comment on such issues, and history is my witness to the truth of what I and others have pointed out concerning religion.
      And we are not simply talking about Christianity either.

      I also mentioned quite clearly that I would have lost a friend because of an ectopic pregnancy had an abortion not been performed and my wife underwent a similar procedure, although at that stage she was not in any particular danger.

      That you, Wally, for example, will actively teach kids at your Sunday school about sin,(which would no doubt include abortion if you were in a position to do so) hell and a 1st century itinerant rabbi who you claim is some sort of deity, for which I might ad you have absolutely no evidence for whatsoever, is tantamount to child abuse.

      That Julie is a staunch advocate of abstinence over contraception, and the comments seem to suggest it to some form of ”sin” against your god or nature is another reason why religion and those who try to push it into the public sphere need to be brought to heel.

      Fortunately, merely by bringing attention to the nonsense of religion and all its follies we are seeing a shift away from such beliefs.
      The situation in Ireland is merely the tip of the iceberg – or as was noted, the quiet revolution.

      There may come a time when you, Wally, will be asked to explain to a child exactly why you believe that dinosaurs and humans co-existed in a 6000 year old earth and why you tried to teach such rubbish in the face of all recognised science?

      I would dearly love for that child to be your grand kid.

      Have a lovely day!

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